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Poll
Question: Is Daniel an "Outsider Artist"?
Yes I think he is   -3 (37.5%)
No I don't think so   -5 (62.5%)
Total Voters: 7

Author Topic: Is Daniel an "Outsider Artist"?  (Read 10016 times)
Stallion
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« on: April 06, 2005, 01:47:23 PM »

Jeff had a good idea about making a poll for this question.  Myself I'd be very interested to hear what people have to say about this. 

So, discuss people. 
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2005, 06:57:40 AM »

Jeff had a good idea about making a poll for this question.  Myself I'd be very interested to hear what people have to say about this. 

So, discuss people. 


The following is the definition of OM according to answers.com:

"Outsider music is music performed either by social outsiders, who have no or few associates in the mainstream music business, or by musicians who choose to live and work in seclusion, often due to compromising behavioral or psychological conditions. Outside music reflects these conditions in various ways. Lyrics are often bizarre or emotionally stark and songs show a great ignorance or disregard for structural conventions or popular trends in mainstream music. Also, outsider musicians frequently have no formal training and/or significant music skills in the traditional sense. The end result is music that is much stranger and more abrasive than more popular musical styles. Outsider music is a form of outsider art.

"By definition, outsider music has very few outlets and most outsider musicians (save those such as Syd Barrett and Skip Spence who became popular before becoming recluses) come to be semi-well known through word of mouth, usually among communities of obsessive music collectors. Only a few, including Tiny Tim and Wesley Willis, have achieved much renown outside of a small coterie of devotees. Outsider music is frequently praised by musicians with experimental leanings, such as avant-garde jazz saxophonist John Zorn and Kurt Cobain—a fan of outsider Daniel Johnston, Cobain famously wore a shirt designed by Johnston.

"Some outsider musicians are famously awful and most of their audience considers them to be a surreal comedy act, something most of these performers realize and embrace. Examples include Florence Foster Jenkins, a American soprano who sang ear-splitting renditions of compositions far outsider her range and Eilert Pilarm, a Swedish Elvis impersonator known for his utter lack of resemblance to Elvis Presley. However, a majority of outsider artists are honestly appreciated for their unique and uncompromising styles of music."


Using those criteria, Daniel definitely qualifies for inclusion. In fact, the only thing keeping Brian Wilson out is his penchant for writing hi-gloss, cars-n-girls pop tunes with mucho mondo production values and harmonies. Take away the Beach Boys' hits, and BW would be on the outside looking in.

I think that those who oppose putting Dan in the OM pool would consider the above definition to be over-reaching and vague, however. Plus it seems to have a lot of "A proves B and B proves A" loopholes in its logic; it reads as if they created their list of who they WANTED to be an OM, and then wrote their description AROUND that list.

Let's see if I can come up with some tweakings:



"Outsider music is music performed either by social outsiders, who have no close associates in, or serious interest from, the mainstream music business. These musicians often live and work in seclusion, often due to compromising behavioral or psychological conditions.

"Their lyrics and melodies are often bizarre and songs show a great ignorance or disregard for structural conventions in mainstream music. Their ears seem to work differently than ours; they often do not even realize that their music is any different from the songs they hear on the radio. To them, their music sounds like a hit, not matter how ear-splitting, atonal, or outre it may be. They are 'all art and no craft', and they tend to 'luck into' what popularity they manage to accrue, as they simply do not and cannot offer a 'product' that is sellable to the mainstream audience, with the only exceptions being once-in-a-lifetime fluke novelty chart hits like Tiny Tim's 'Tiptoe Thru the Tulips' or the Lonesome Stardust Cowboy's 'Paralyzed'.

"Also, outsider musicians frequently have no formal training and/or significant musical skills in the traditional sense. They may not even play what we traditionally recognize as musical instruments. The end result is music that is much stranger and more abrasive than more widely popular musical styles.

"By definition, outsider music has very few outlets and most outsider musicians come to be semi-well known through word of mouth, usually among communities of obsessive music collectors. Only a few, like Wesley Willis, have achieved much renown outside of a small coterie of devotees. True OMs make music that is uniquely theirs - it would be no easier for a popular recording artist to score a hit with one of their compositions (except, again, as a one-off flavor-of-the-month oddity) than it would for the OM himself to become a household name across America.

"Some outsider musicians are routinely touted as being 'brilliant' or called 'genius' by jaded members of the press seeking something - anything! - that they haven't already become bored with. It's an 'apples and oranges' situation, though; their lyrics, however fascinating and/or entertaining they may be in their own way, cannot really be compared (certainly not favorably) with those of a skilled, inarguably gifted songwriter such as Bob Dylan or Stephen Sondheim. Some OMs are famous specifically for their awfulness and most of their audience considers them to be a surreal comedy act, a fact that many of these performers eventually realize and some even choose to embrace."

Here we have a category which clearly excludes Daniel Johnston. He possesses several of the characteristics required, but not nearly all. Most significantly, while his lyrics often contain unusual stylistic quirks and idiosyncracies, just as many are both emotionally affecting and intelligently crafted. The works he has produced which inspire cries of 'genius' are hampered only by his level of available technology and the limitations of his voice. Any number of his songs have the potential chart-toppers, classics, or even standards if recorded with care and affection by a Michael Stipe or a Harry Connick, Jr.

  - Knot Whole
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2005, 09:38:22 AM »

The following SXSW Blog was forwarded to me. This was written by a journalist from Dallas who attended the High Wire Hootenanny at SxSW 2005, and who describes Daniel as an "outsider" (without using that word):


High Wire’s a new label, just launching this week and based in New York. has an interesting line-up for today, heavy on the left-leaning singer-songwriter types and including lyricist Daniel Johnston. I say ‘lyricist’ because saying songwriter might lead you to assume the ‘singer’ part, and Mr. Johnston is certainly not that. In fact, he really shouldn’t. I watched him murder a tune, absolutely appalled and then caught onto his words and realized his brilliance isn’t in the performance of his works, but in the writing. He’s famous for the artists who have covered his songs, including Mercury Rev, M. Ward, Sparklehorse and The Flaming Lips, Tom Waits, Beck, Bright Eyes, Starlight Mints, Eels, T.V. On The Radio, Death Cab For Cutie, and I could go on listing names, so you see what I mean. After the surreal experience of Johnston, Jason Falkner was a pretty and refreshing change, but I couldn’t stay.
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2005, 08:26:29 PM »

Tweaks on the tweaks (or just thoughts)...

"Outsider music is music performed either by social outsiders, who have no close associates in, or serious interest from, the mainstream music business. These musicians often live and work in seclusion, often due to compromising behavioral or psychological conditions."

Well, Daniel certainly has connections in the music industry (some of them post here!), but I don't know about "mainstream" (and that's a GOOD thing, needless to say!).

"Their lyrics and melodies are often bizarre and songs show a great ignorance or disregard for structural conventions in mainstream music. Their ears seem to work differently than ours; they often do not even realize that their music is any different from the songs they hear on the radio. To them, their music sounds like a hit, not matter how ear-splitting, atonal, or outre it may be. They are 'all art and no craft', and they tend to 'luck into' what popularity they manage to accrue, as they simply do not and cannot offer a 'product' that is sellable to the mainstream audience, with the only exceptions being once-in-a-lifetime fluke novelty chart hits like Tiny Tim's 'Tiptoe Thru the Tulips' or the Lonesome Stardust Cowboy's 'Paralyzed'."

Enough interesting stuff in this to fill up a couple of threads smiley. I interviewed Tiny once, and I think he saw himself as an entertainer, whether singing at the Royal Albert Hall or to a bunch of strangers on a street corner in Iowa. I get a similar impression about Daniel - that is if absolutely NO ONE paid any attention to his music whatsoever he'd STILL be pounding them out and taping them on a boombox, because he's driven by something beyond recognition and renumeration to create his songs. Indeed, this is exactly the pattern that outsider artists exhibit.

(snip)

"Some outsider musicians are routinely touted as being 'brilliant' or called 'genius' by jaded members of the press seeking something - anything! - that they haven't already become bored with. It's an 'apples and oranges' situation, though; their lyrics, however fascinating and/or entertaining they may be in their own way, cannot really be compared (certainly not favorably) with those of a skilled, inarguably gifted songwriter such as Bob Dylan or Stephen Sondheim. Some OMs are famous specifically for their awfulness and most of their audience considers them to be a surreal comedy act, a fact that many of these performers eventually realize and some even choose to embrace."

Here we have a category which clearly excludes Daniel Johnston. He possesses several of the characteristics required, but not nearly all. Most significantly, while his lyrics often contain unusual stylistic quirks and idiosyncracies, just as many are both emotionally affecting and intelligently crafted. The works he has produced which inspire cries of 'genius' are hampered only by his level of available technology and the limitations of his voice. Any number of his songs have the potential chart-toppers, classics, or even standards if recorded with care and affection by a Michael Stipe or a Harry Connick, Jr."

They're just amazing songs - though I don't know if I buy into the "limitations of his voice" thing. To me, the singing and the songs are all part of the same package. Very occasionally I prefer the covers to Daniel's originals ("Living Life," for example, or "Good Morning You" come to mind), but Daniel's sincerety and emotional commitment far overshadow any "deficiencies" in his voice - making me wonder just what that term means ANYWAY (I mean, I've known people who turn away from Daniel's music because of his singing, but then rave about the most recent Dylan album.... huh???).

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Henry Long
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2005, 02:00:22 PM »

Man, I struggle with such labels constantly. Enough so that I feel like excluding myself from this conversation.

But to add another perspective on it, here is a link to an explanation of what "Visionary Art" means from the American Visionary Art Museum, (one of my favorite museums):

http://www.avam.org/stuff/whatsvis.html

Personally, I am going to say Daniel is NOT an Outsider artist. I've met a few of them. None had fan forums, record contracts, or Sundance film premiers about their lives...

I even got asked a few times to submit some of my work to a gallery which exhibited "Outsider" art. I said, "I have a BFA, slides and an exhibition history that goes back 30 years. How the Hell am I an Outsider?"

"All true artists, self-taught or not, ARE self-taught, no matter what the schooling." I said that. 'Nuff said.
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